Spreading kindness on social media with Sarah Browning

Is there really kindness on social media? Sarah (she/her) thinks yes, and lots of it, but she's on a mission to prove it. I chat to her about why she's so passionate about kindness and why so many of us are a bit scared to believe in it.

Sarah is a Kindness Cheerleader and Communicator. She works with organisations and individuals to find more effective ways to communicate their vision of a kinder world and to achieve their organisational goals. With nearly 20 years’ experience supporting charities, higher education institutions and other not-for-profits to communicate more strategically, she also runs #ProjectAmplifyKindness, an initiative to share stories of every day kindness.

Sarah's links.
Website: www.timeforkindness.co.uk
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/time_for_kindness/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/TimeforKindness
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sarah-browning-she-her-438b4120/

Other links mentioned.
Hank Green's sad gap video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbPY2hyU3zk
John Green's sad gap video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bew3EMicf8g
BBC good news stories: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/topics/cx2pk70323et
Anatomy of Kindness podcast: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m00154cp
Blog from a headteacher: https://timeforkindness.co.uk/kindness-blog/what-if-kindness-is-a-priority-in-education/

Alexis' links.
I hang out on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/alexisbushnell/​
Find me on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/SocialMediaForHumans
Join the club to learn more about ethical and effective social media marketing: https://socialmediaforhumans.club/

Voice over by Hawke Wood: https://www.spotlight.com/3490-9081-8844

Support the show

Buy me a coffee: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/AlexisB

Alexis' links.
Me on Toot Wales: https://toot.wales/@alexisbushnell
Or on Calckey Social: https://calckey.social/@AlexisBushnell
I hang out on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/alexisbushnell/​
Me on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bushnellcs/
Find me on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/SocialMediaForHumans
Join the club to learn more about ethical and effective social media marketing: https://socialmediaforhumans.club/

Voice over by Hawke Wood: https://www.spotlight.com/3490-9081-8844

Transcript

Hawke: 0:00

Hello and welcome to Social Media for Humans, the podcast that empowers you to do social differently.  Your host, Alexis Bushnell, and her guests discuss their experience of social media as business  owners, users, and ultimately humans with insights and advice to help you find an effective and  ethical strategy that works for you. Grab yourself a drink and join the conversation.  

Alexis: 0:25

Hello hello, I am here with fabulous Sarah, do introduce yourself, tell us who you are, what you do.

Sarah: 0:31

Good morning, my name is Sarah Browning and my pronouns are she her and I'm a kindness cheerleader and  communicator, and I work with organisations and individuals who have a vision of a kinder world.  

Alexis: 0:43

That is a fabulous job title, kindness cheerleader, tell me what that means to you.  

Sarah: 0:50

So I guess there's a couple of things, some of it comes from the fact that  I work with organisations and individuals to to help them communicate their messages more  clearly, so some of the cheerleading comes from that piece of kind of raising people's  voices, helping them to to raise their own voices, and also the cheerleader aspect comes  probably only in the last 12, 18 months that I've described myself in that way, I think I've probably  been acting in that way for a lot longer, but I've described it that way because kindness is  so important to me and I have come to realise that actually there is an awful lot of kindness in the  world around us, we just don't talk enough about it yet and so part of my mission I guess both in  terms of kind of professionally and personally is about amplifying those stories of kindness,  shouting about it, helping to help those that either are not able to see the kindness  in the world or perhaps are less, I don't know, perhaps less confident about seeing it maybe, it's about amplifying those stories and showing them that it is there and the more we see it, the  more we talk about it, the more we will get, very much from the basis of there is a lot already. I'm  not denying there's lots of horrible stuff going on, don't get me wrong there is, but it's about the  balance of that narrative, and what we talk about, and where we put our focus and attention.  

Alexis: 2:15

Yeah, yeah, kind of like a look for the helpers situation,  when people say, you know, something awful happens look for the people who are helping.  

Sarah: 2:23

Absolutely, absolutely. And you know what's been really interesting, I'm not a driver but I  imagine if you drive and you decide you want to buy a red car then you see red cars everywhere, and  in the same way, you know, as I have become more and more aware of how important kindness is to me  and I have, I think I probably have a more natural leaning towards looking for it anyway, but the more  I have looked the more I have seen and actually I mean one of the stories we published on the  time for kindness Instagram, website and socials and all the rest of it, one of  the stories we posted was around a friend of mine who was a shopping center and saw a little old  lady waiting on the other side of the automatic doors and people were streaming through and the  poor lady couldn't get through and then my friend let her through, and I think it's very easy for  people to focus on all the ones who didn't let her through, whereas actually if you see somebody  letting them through then that's where you can put your focus and notice that that did happen.  

Alexis: 3:21

Yeah yeah, you are so right, and I think especially with the news cycle, I was going to say at the  moment but it's not even at the moment anymore it's just the news cycle forever,  it is really easy to see all of the bad stuff and also of course the news doesn't, you don't get  the good news on the news at 6 so you, you know, it's all like here is all the heinous things  that you need to know are happening in the world, and so I do think a lot of people at the moment  have realised how difficult it is to cope with the just constant onslaught of bad news.  So I think what you're doing is amazing because I do think we need to look for those good news stories, and those kindnesses, and the reasons, the good reasons, the good things that  make us human against that sort of backdrop of here is all the reasons humans are awful.

Sarah: 4:22

Yeah absolutely, absolutely, and one of the things that drives me and then that worries me is  that it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, you know, we've sold ourselves collectively  or whatever, this this idea that humans are awful and we're all going to hell in a handcart  but actually, and part of that I think within that is this idea that kindness is the same as  weakness and it really isn't. I think it's, you mentioned there about the kind of  what makes us human, and it's that shared humanity is what kindness shows and kind of  brings to the fore, and that's incredibly powerful actually, you know, it's not weak,  it is powerful, and it's what connects us all and there is something about, you know, wanting  to believe in that and partly, on my website when I talk about who is Time for Kindness for,  you know, it's for people who believe in kindness but it's also for people who want to believe in  kindness but perhaps they're a bit unsure and a bit unconfident about whether they  are being silly and fluffy and weak, and so some of I don't know if I would describe myself  necessarily as militant about kindness, but at times it feels that way you know, which isn't  to say, I also get sucked into the the negativity sometimes and the downward spiral and that's really  horrible and really hard and, you know, it's certainly not. I'm not wanting to set up in  any way to criticise people who get caught up in that because it is so easy and, again, I think there  is something about that kind of being conscious of what you're consuming, what you're looking at, what  you're engaging with, and so on and so on, that if you want to and if you are able to,  you can make a choice to change. For all sorts of reasons sometimes people are not in a position to  be able to do that but actually even if you can do it just a little bit, just a tiny bit, just see  one story that's a bit more positive each day or a bit kinder each day, then it starts to build up  and become something bigger in my view of the world. Alexis: Yeah no, I think you're right. Actually  I watched a video from Hank Green about the sad gap the other day which was really interesting  because he was saying how there's sort of a curve of when we learn about a new issue  or there is a new a new thing going on in the news where initially we don't know about it  and then we become conscious of it and we only see all the bad things, and then as we learn more about  it we start to see the nuance of it and that it's not all bad and that actually there's  a lot of work being done to improve it and there's all these new businesses starting up  and grassroots organisations working towards changing it and things like that, and that then  gives us that balance. But he was saying that the way the news cycle, and also of course social media,  work is that we are always on the sort of up of that, we are always taking on  new things and we never dive into,  like dive deeper into them so we never get  over the the sad gap to the side where we're like "oh okay it's not all awful."  That's interesting and yeah I guess the clue is in news perhaps, the sort of new bit.  I mean you were saying we don't get any positive stories in the news, actually  we do and what I have found again since kind of actively looking for things, the BBC has a positive  feed page or something, I can't remember whatever it's called, it is there but it's not headlined in  the same way so actually it's very easy to just miss it if you don't actively go looking for it and I guess there is. So I've been listening recently to the  Anatomy of Kindness podcast by Claudia Hammond who's involved with at the University of Sussex,  they're running a big public research project called the kindness test in conjunction with  Radio 4 and I've been listening to the podcast recently and I was listening to it this morning  and the podcast they've had different themes you know each week or whatever  and what I was listening to this morning was around can bosses be kind, ws  which was quite interesting and they were talking about the negativity bias,  that if you ask somebody to tell you a story about a boss that they worked for  they are far far more likely to tell you about a bad thing that happened with a boss  than a good thing, and they may have lots of good things that happened but somehow again, I mean I  don't know the science of it but somehow we seem to developed somewhere along the line, or maybe  it's always been there, this kind of negativity thing, and you know in some situations you do  need to see the bad to protect yourself as it were, the whole kind of safety, you know. I would say I'm  not a scientist so I get a little vague at this point because most of my stuff is on gut instinct  but I think that there is something about that, that kind of what we choose to look for, or even  we may not be making a conscious choice actually but what we are looking for again it's kind of the story that we tell ourselves and others and then it becomes self-fulfilling.  

Alexis: 9:44

It's interesting you say about that negativity bias as well because I think that shows up a lot  on social media where people are, like with brands people are much more likely to send  a Tweet because they had a bad experience with a brand, to leave a review because they had a bad  experience with a product, than the opposite, than if they had a great experience, people so rarely  shout out about that and I think that it is so frustrating, especially for small business owners.  It's really difficult to get people to leave reviews if they've had a good experience,  so I do think that shows up in social media a lot which I think kind of plays into that sort of  reason that so many people are anti social media and like social media is just bad and it's all  negative but I that is absolutely not true from my experience and I would imagine  from your experience too. Sarah: Yeah absolutely and part of this thing is that we seem to be in an age of absolutes somehow so you know social media either has to be good or bad it can't  be somewhere in the middle or both, and the same with kindness people are either kind or  they're unkind, well no that's not true either, kind people do bad things and vice versa.   So I think there is lots of good around social media in terms of the work that I'm doing  because I am seeing stories of kindness that are shared and I think  you're right, they maybe not shared quite as often necessarily but also, of course, it's a  way to reach out to more people so when I do find the stories I do tell my friends and family, but I think the point which I realised that I'm obviously perhaps getting a little bit  obsessed with it, my daughter who's 14 came home from school saying she'd helped a younger child  at football group who had a problem with their football boot laces and she'd  helped to undo this kid's laces. That's lovely, that's really kind, did you get a photograph? At which point I've got the eye roll and the "oh for goodness sake!"  So but you know, so I do but social media means that I can share  that to a wider audience and that they can then obviously share it on  as well. What is interesting I think is that pretty much everyone I tell what I'm doing,   I think almost everybody, if not everybody, I said to about it says "oh that's such a good idea,"  getting them then to take the step to to follow on social media or to engage  with the website or whatever I think is the next stage that I will say I need to work on,  but again it's that thing isn't it of taking action, taking a positive action. We mean to,  we just don't necessarily get around to it. Alexis: Yeah yeah yeah definitely and I think again  it's especially, like everybody's busy and the positive things tend to be the ones  that we put off, like the self-care, the looking for the good in the world, the slowing down,  it's those things that we tend to shelve when things are busy and stressful and overwhelming,  which is interesting because I think at this point we all know that those are the  things we need the most in those moments. Sarah: Yeah absolutely and you know it's   the same isn't it, we all know that we should be eating five portions of fruit and veg a day,  do we realistically? Probably not. So yeah there is something isn't there around that,  we know it's good for us and it would be a good thing sometimes, I mean I know that I   receive a few different newsletters that are around positive news and happy news and  that sort of thing, they're always the ones I read last, and the reason they're the ones  I read last is because I sort of want to save the nice thing to the end, if that makes sense.  Like the best bit in your dinner, leaving that till the end isn't it, it's a little bit like I kind  of want to savor it and actually sometimes what happens of course is life gets in the way and I  don't actually get to it, so I probably would be better just to read it first. So I think there's  all sorts of complex things going on and they're in people's heads around, kind of, what we choose  to do, when we choose to do it, but with the best of intentions sometimes things get missed,  you know, we're all human aren't we. Alexis: Yes. I want to come back to what you were saying about asking your daughter if she'd taking a photo because I think this is something it comes up a lot around  like virtue signaling signaling and social issues and stuff, I think it's true of of just generic  kindness shall we say, in that there is a set of people who would probably say if you are  documenting it then you're not doing it out of the goodness of your heart, you're doing it  to show how kind you are, to shout about what an amazing person you are, and for the sort of  external bigging up. What is your thoughts on that? Sarah: Yeah well I said first of all Time for  Kindness I'm very adamant that, you know, this isn't about saying "oh look at Sarah, isn't she kind."  You know, by and large did we get that balance right, obviously some of those are things  I've done but it is about amplifying stories, but I think it's really that. Somebody asked me the  other day about, you know, had I experienced any of that sort of virtue signaling,  kind of do-gooder accusations, and I haven't so far, I suspect that is partly because the  reach isn't big enough yet. I imagine at some point we might start to get some of that but  I also think there is some, there's a whole load of things within that isn't there, one of which  is actually it's genuine and authentic and you can call me a do-gooder, but actually what's wrong with  being a do-gooder, you know? Well, what's wrong with doing good rather, I should say, because I  think do-gooder as a term as a majority of us know it has come to have that meaning, but  actually I think it is authentic, I know I am not doing any of this to show off to others  therefore I'm comfortable with that. I have wobbles sometimes, of course I do, but by and large it's a  genuine authentic thing and I have found as I have been more open in talking about kindness   in all sort of ways actually, but for example on LinkedIn, which obviously I use from  a professional point of view and I have done for years and years, but I the lens I talk about my  work now is much more through kindness, I get far more response to that in terms of the "oh Sarah,  "I see the stuff you're doing, that's fantastic," than I ever got when I just talked about communications.  So again I think there is something about connecting with people and  using that kind of language to connect with people, and I think there is  this sort of idea that if you do kind things it has to not, you know, you don't get a  benefit from it, if you get a benefit from it then if that somehow negates it. I think it is  complete nonsense actually, why shouldn't it be a win-win? And it is true that whatever, you know,  kindness can be very very small and actually a lot of what we put on Time for Kindness are the  much smaller kind of everyday acts of kindness because there are so many of those, but actually  even if you're just on your morning dog walk and you see somebody and you smile and,  that can be a kindness if they're having a bad day but actually that again, that kind of connection and  that doing something with somebody, helping somebody pick up their shopping if they drop  something in the supermarket, those kinds of things, you know it does give you a boost because it,   you know, it is good to do something like that, it is nice and I personally think there is nothing  wrong with that. I think where it becomes a problem is when it does become performative  and I think it's what is interesting at the moment is where, kindness is definitely having a  moment in the sense that more and more brands and people in the public eye and so on are are using  the language of kindness and you know, I think, I'm sure for a lot of them that is genuine  but for some it isn't, for some it will just be the hopping on the bandwagon so you know, I think  we, so it is right to sometimes kind of question, "okay, so you're using this language but this is  "how you're treating your employees" or whatever, well it doesn't quite add up but I would  argue that that is a minority overall of all the kindness that is going on around the world.  Yeah yeah. I think for me the differentiation is actions versus words,  like if you are talking about kindness and how kind you are and how you know you do all these  kind things but you're not actually doing them, that is that's where the line is for me. It's very  much like if you are taking the kind actions then shout about them, I don't care, go for it.  

Sarah: 19:02

Absolutely, absolutely, because kindness is active. I agree with you, you know, it is it is something to be done. And actually the other thing as well is, as you say, if you're shouting  about it, about the action and what's happened, you can inspire other people as well, so  just reading about it can be uplifting but it can also inspire that oh I could do that for  my neighbour, or actually there's that family that's just moved in down the street that look different  to everyone else, I'm gonna go and say hello to welcome them, you know. There's all sorts of  different things that can give you ideas that you may not have thought of yourself or, like I  said earlier, been a bit kind of embarrassed and shy about well I don't think I want to do  that, and then if you hear about other people doing it you think actually yeah, I want to be like that too.  So yeah, I'm with you let's shout about it. Alexis: It's interesting as well that you say that you've had a lot of good feedback on LinkedIn because I think LinkedIn definitely has a reputation for  being the place where if you're not posting about business and  deep thinkings about certain things that are business related and certain very very specific  topics that you will get a lot of pushback, and a lot of "this isn't Facebook" and stuff like that.  You have clearly not had that situation, why do you think that is?  Yeah it's interesting isn't it because I've seen more of that more recently, that type of  both in terms of the kind of what you might call more personal and then the pushback  against that. I guess one of the reasons is probably because I'm talking to an echo  chamber, my own echo chamber, so there is an element of that I think. I also, I guess   I do talk about kindness in a slightly different way on different social media channels actually,  and where I, you know, introduced myself at the start as a kindness cheerleader and  communicator, and on LinkedIn I am definitely kind of both, and I am talking about the kind of work  that I do or that I'm interacting with, the things that other people are doing in that sort of  professional way through the lens of kindness, if that makes sense, it makes sense to me, I'm not sure  if it makes sense quite you know. But I think that there is something about, and  again because I am not saying "hey look at Sarah, okay look what I'm doing," I think that might be  different as well but I think it's, I do share stories on LinkedIn, stories of kindness, they tend to be re-sharing things that other people have already put on  LinkedIn as opposed to me having posts that are just about kindness stories, I think for me  that would be the line that wouldn't quite feel right in that context, although having said that  I mean I did put something on last week about kind of kindness to self when I've been for a long  bike ride and I've taken a day off work, but then that one did cause me a moment of  pause before I pressed publish because I did say "I took the day off, my clients knew what was going on," but I thought, you know, what actually for me because I work for myself, maybe it's different if  you work for yourself, I'm not sure, I've been working for myself for such a long time  that LinkedIn wasn't really a thing when I was employed so I never really used it as an employee,  but I think, you know, because I work freelance and I do that because I like the  the entirety of my life, if you like, is kind of my professional and my personal are combined and the  kindness and other aspects of the way I work are personal values as well as business values so it's  cohesive, and I think some of that maybe comes again back to that authenticity thing that  I'm clear. People work with me in my professional capacity  because yes I'm good at what I do but also they enjoy working with me, and so in that case they have to know who I am, they have to trust me, and they can't trust me if they don't  know me, so I do have to sort of share a little bit more about Sarah in an entire sense, but  it is a balance and I think, you know, there are things that I see on LinkedIn that I sometimes say  "not sure if I'd have shared that," but actually doesn't really matter whether I would share it or  not, I think if the person it feels comfortable and to them it makes sense and it helps and  it is serving some kind of purpose. I mean I think very often my take on it when I see  things that are very personal is it usually does have some kind of connection, either to saying  look we're all human beings this stuff happens, yes I'm a professional as well but this stuff  happens and if it's happening to you I hear you, I see you, and I think there's a lot of value in that.  So I think that there is something there around the way in which you, I guess  the lens that you use to talk about that personal stuff, but I think it's an interesting one anyway.  For me it feels like something that has definitely changed in the last, I don't know how many months,  but more recently certainly, and I think some of that also is off the back of the pandemic  because suddenly we were all at home with our dogs on our laps and our children coming  in to say hello and all of that kind of stuff, and actually it became somehow more acceptable  to be a whole person, and that's one of those things for me that's a good thing that's come  out of the awful time that we've all been through, and that actually there's a lot of value in  keeping that going forward I think. Alexis: Yeah. Do you think that there has been an increase  in maybe appetite for good news since the pandemic started as well? Because from what I have seen  there has been a shift in what people are looking for, and the sort of conversations  people are having towards much more authenticity and we are all human and stuff like that,  and I wonder if that has also sort of shifted towards a want to see the the good news and the  happy things and the look actually there's some good stuff going on in the world.   yeah I suspect it has got something to do with that and I think there is something about hope maybe as well, you know, kindness and hope is something that is on my very long list of things to kind of  explore further and do more thinking about and then share more content about actually,  and certainly. It's hard isn't it, you know, thinking back to where we were two years ago,  now we're in this kind of oh it's all back to normal kind of place, as it were, it's already quite  hard to remember what that was like two years ago, that actually that was very  dark times obviously, you know, darker for some than others, and depending on your kind of, your personal  circumstances and so on and what have you, but nevertheless I think there was something  about needing hope and needing to look for those positive things as well as the the fact  that there was a lot more, again more in some communities probably than others, but there was  more of that reaching out and helping others, albeit at a socially acceptable distance,  and so on and so on. But I think that it, just something huge like that I guess does just  change everything, and certainly I've been talking, I've been working with these kinds of  organisations my whole, my entire career, most of my career, but it is only since kind of  late 2020 that I've expressed it as kindness. I used to talk about wanting to to work with  organisations that wanted a better world and in late 2020 I think we were all thinking  what the heck is going on here, what do I really want from life? What is really important to me? And  in that context is where I, you know, it occurred to me that actually I say better, I mean kinder, and  I'm going to be more open about that now. And for me I think there was an element of, you know, it  did feel brave to start with because it did feel a little bit like am I going to get laughed at, am I  going to get kind of shouted down? But actually you know that need for more kind of  positivity, I talk specifically about kindness which I think positive news is  bigger than just kindness, but I think you know there is definitely, I guess with any content  it's only going to be well received if people want it and are looking for it, so I suppose this is a very long way to answer your question that actually it must be that there's  more of an appetite for positive and kind news otherwise it wouldn't be so well received.  

Alexis: 28:37

Yeah no, I think you're right, the audience needs to be there  otherwise you know about it pretty quickly! Sarah: Yeah the tumbleweed going across would tell you!  Yeah. There are going to be a lot of people I imagine, like you mentioned at the beginning,  who are feeling kindness is fluffy, kindness is not important, or possibly scared to look  for it maybe in case they don't find it, what would you say are some sort of baby steps, I  guess, for people who are like "I don't really know about this?"

Sarah: 29:21

Absolutely. Follow Time for Kindness might be a suggestion because we definitely have kindness stories so if you're worried you're not  going to find any definitely come and find us! A bit of a tongue-in-cheek answer  really because I guess first I would say I completely get that because there is something  you know in terms of either taking kind actions, or even to some extent looking for them, that's  about vulnerability because you know, and like I said when I first started talking about it more  it did feel like quite a brave thing to do because I didn't know how  it would be received but I think you know that starting to look,  look for the helpers like you said, and it is a first step that you can take  because the stories are there and it does become a virtuous circle as well you know, the more you  you speak, the more you look for and you see, you know, you see other things and I think you know in terms of kindness sometimes people can think it has to be something big  and some grand gesture, actually it doesn't you know, there is kindness in really small things  as well, so like I said just kind of smiling and saying hello to somebody on the street,  but again I appreciate there are people for whom that isn't possible because you know, you don't go  out on the street, or you're concerned about that kind of vulnerability, so there will  be other things that you can do and I think actually one of the good things about social media  is that possibility to find your tribe and find communities, and actually there's a lot of kindness  within just getting involved in a group that shares your interests. If you've got a  hobby that you enjoy or a TV program that you like or whatever, sometimes just complimenting somebody on there, that's an act of kindness, you don't  have to compliment them necessarily but recognise them on there, or say actually yes I agree with  that, I hear you, all of those kinds of things can be quite small depending on the kind of context of  how you live your life there will be something that you can take that small step. I spoke on a radio program last year, I think, it was around kindness and gratitude actually  and the host of that is somebody who has had a very dark past and one  of the things that she was talking about was actually if you're in some awful situation  how do you start to see kindness? How do you start to find gratitude? And actually  I think sometimes it's that kindness to self thing that perhaps is the kindness that you can you know apply if you like, in terms of sometimes just getting out of bed  is a big deal and you shouldn't underestimate that, and that you know being kind to yourself  to recognise that you made yourself a cup of tea today, you know, there are all sorts of things, I  think it is a question of finding something that is, you know, might feel like a huge step, don't  listen to the voice that's telling you "well that's pathetic, you've just made a cup of tea,"  actually acknowledge that voice, let it go and focus on the kindness side of  that to be kind to yourself. And then again I do believe it becomes more of a virtuous circle  that once you feel stronger in yourself then you might feel brave enough to to do something for  someone else, but actually if you don't that's okay, you know, it's what is right for you and  your life and no one else knows that except you and I think that's really important to remember.  

Alexis: 33:14

Yeah and I think as well when you talk about sort of the community aspect of it, I think it's  important for us all to remember as well that part of the point of community is that sometimes  we are giving and sometimes we are receiving and we don't always have to be doing the kindness,  sometimes the kindness is allowing other people to do it and just receiving it, and  that could be difficult in itself but I think it is important to try and sort of re-orientate  how you're sort of seeing things to realise that it doesn't always have to be you doing  the thing, and equally it doesn't always have to be you receiving the thing, it is a balance.  And actually from sort of my own experience I have suffered with quite severe depression and I tried a gratitude journal many years ago now because it was the big thing at the time,  everybody was like "gratitude journaling cures depression." Spoilers, not true! But I tried it  and I found it made me dramatically worse because not only was I so depressed I couldn't think of  things to be grateful for, it added a layer of now I feel guilty because I'm so selfish that I  can't think of anything to be grateful for, and so for me it was giving kindness in those instances  because it is so much easier, or was for me, it was so much easier to be kind to other  people than it was to myself but, like you say, it does start to create that circle  of, because if you're giving kindness you know there is kindness in the world, you know it exists  because you're doing it. So I think some of it is also just checking in  with what is making sense to you, like you say, like what do you need? And what is not  helping you? And being okay with showing yourself that kindness of this is not working for me,  this is not helping me, I'm not gonna do it, I'm not gonna push that.   

Sarah: 35:31

Yeah absolutely, I mean I often say that I think one of the things that would be great would be if we could ban the word 'should.'  It's quite difficult to talk about that without using the word but you know, I think that, as you say, there's a lot of "this is what you should do, this will  help you," and actually it doesn't help everybody, and there is something about  as you say, recognising what's serving you and what isn't, and that will be different for different  people because we are different, we're different individuals, and that is hard when, particularly if  you're unwell it's hard to recognise that and see that, and the point at which.  So when I started Time for Kindness 18 months or so ago it was a nice idea, I thought, you know,  I'll have a bit of a go, I'll sort of play with it, see what happens, and the point at which  it became apparent to me and I thought this is too important not to do  was somebody I know, I don't know them very well but I had met them through local networks and  things and hadn't seen for a while and then they got in touch with me, by LinkedIn actually,  and a private message and said "I've seen what you're doing," I knew that they had a lot of difficulties with their mental health, and they got in touch with me and said that they  had been in an incredibly dark place and actually it's the kindness of strangers that saved them,  and they said, you know, "I've seen what you're doing, please don't stop doing  it because when you're in that dark place it's hard to see the kindness for yourself,  you reflecting that I can see it's there even if I'm not well enough to engage with it."  At the moment and, as I said, that was the point I thought this is too important not to do and you know, as I say it's always been important to me but that was when I thought yeah, this is   kind of my commitment to keep doing this and keep building on this, because I mean it still  makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand up. There is, for me, there  is something about holding that space for people if they can't do it for themselves until they are  ready. So there's, you know, there's a lot built in this within Time for Kindness, but it is  important, I think, to have something there for other people if they're not able to themselves.  

Alexis: 37:59

Yeah yeah and I think that again comes back to that giving and receiving, and the importance of  when we are able to see the kindness ourselves sharing it with other people, telling other people  about this kind thing that you saw today or this kind thing that you did today, so that it becomes that normal part of conversation and you're not always talking about "did you see  this awful thing on the new." That actually part of those conversations  you're having with the people around you is actually this really great thing happened today,  I saw this person pick up somebody's bag for them and put everything back in it and send  them on their way again, and things like that. Like we need that and we need to share that more.  And it is so important, I think, that when we are in a place of being able to see that,  of becoming conscious of how how much we are sharing of the "this is important, you  need to know about this," versus "this is a nice thing, there are good things happening."  

Sarah: 39:13

Yeah absolutely, I mean one of the things that I love is when people, and this is  starting to happen, but when people are coming to me kind of proactively saying I thought you'd like  to hear about this, I saw this thing happen today, I'd like that to happen more, I'd like to sort of get to a place where we've built on that and done that more, and in a funny  sort of way where it isn't happening so much, other than as I mentioned with my daughter in  the football boots, is within my friendship circle actually, my family, because we don't have those  sorts of conversations very often. They know that Sarah does this thing but actually, you know,  some of them do but again it's that sort of needing to encourage people to take action,  and one of the actions is tell me what you saw, tell me what happened, and if you can get a photo  also good, if not we'll get one separately. But again I think, and actually with my daughter it's  interesting because we went up to London last week and unbidden she pointed out to me that she'd seen somebody give up a seat on the tube for someone else and "oh mum!" So I think  again it's that thing of you know getting into that habit of, as I  said, kind of spotting the things but then talking about them. And you don't have to tell  me about it but you know talking, telling your friends and family about it or whatever because  it becomes a natural part of the way we live our lives then, we're not thinking about something  consciously that we have to have on our to-do list it's just part of who we are and how we are.  

Alexis: 40:50

Yeah yeah I do. It's interesting that you say your daughter has been sort  of the main person who has really sort of taken that on and is sharing things, because I do think  children especially, it's not weird to kids to be kind and they are much more adaptable to things  like that, so I do think actually if you have young children in your life it can be really  useful to talk to them about kindness so that they start sharing stuff and it gives you a nudge, because I think as an adult we are so conditioned and programmed and we've been  in this sort of adulting professional world for so long where it's like "oh kindness is mushy  and silly, gotta focus on this, gotta do this, gotta do that," but to have that reminder from  children where they're like "oh look they're doing this over here," just to remind you so that you're  like "oh yeah that's so cool," can start to help you readjust your your own view of things as well.  

Sarah: 41:59

Yeah and you know we were talking earlier about that kind of self-fulfilling prophecy and kind  of narratives that we've sold ourselves, and actually this idea that children are cruel  is one of those in my humble opinion, this idea that children are all mean to each other at school  that isn't true necessarily. What I think has been interesting, so one of my favourite days of the  year is the Kind Fest online festival of kindness which is on world kindness day, 13th November I  think it is, they over the last couple of years have had quite a few speakers talking about  schemes that are with working in schools with primary aged children around kindness  and developing kindness, and very often actually with children of that age it's about helping them  have the language to articulate, so that they might do things naturally to help a  friend or whatever but they don't necessarily have the language to see that as kindness,  and one of the blogs on the Time for Kindness site is from a head teacher of a junior  school and they have kindness champions and she talks about how kindness is actually written into  the curriculum in various ways. But then  I'm yet to find anything, I'm not saying it doesn't  exist so if anybody listening to the podcast knows of something like this please do get  in touch and tell me about it because I'd like to see that carry on with teenagers, because actually  I think the the challenge for teenagers, and it's one of the reasons that I think my daughter  is quite remarkable in many ways, is that that's the age when you feel really vulnerable  and really self-conscious and, you know, so often you want to fit in and you don't  really know who you are but you don't want to be different to anyone else and that kind of thing,  and so I think I'd like to hear if, as I say, if anyone knows of any kind of schemes that help  teenagers to have that confidence in continuing. Because again, when when you're feeling  vulnerable and if you're worried something's weak then you're not gonna go there, and yet  actually again, self-fulfilling kind of narrative that we've sold ourselves that teenagers and young  people are all, you know, out on street corners doing god knows what, also not true. Yes, that  is the reality for some but actually for so many more they do all sorts of positive things  and all sorts of different stuff going on, we just don't hear those stories very often either so at some point I would like to bring more of the kind of youth voice and young people's  voice into Time for Kindness because at the moment it's me and people like me quite frankly, which is  great, we're good but there's a lot of us, so I'd like to bring in different voices as well, but that's, as I say, very long list of things to think about, do, bring in, at some point.

Alexis: 44:53

Well if people would like to be one of those voices and they would like to share their own  story of kindness, or indeed see all of these stories of kindness, where can they find you?  

Sarah: 45:02

So they can find me on Instagram which is @Time_For_Kindness there's also  Time for Kindness page on Facebook and TimeForKindness.co.uk is the website  which has all the stories and also has blogs and my kind of professional services as well.  

Alexis: 45:22

Very good. This has been absolutely fascinating, thank you so much for being here  

Sarah: 45:28

It's been an absolute pleasure, you know I could talk about kindness till the cows come home  so if anyone wants to get in touch just for a chat about kindness I would love to hear from them.  

Alexis: 45:40

Fabulous, I will of course put all of your links in the show notes so people can find you  very very easily, they do not have to remember where those underscores are.

Sarah: 45:52

Thanks very much.

Hawke: 45:55

If you want more regular reminders to find your own way to use social media, follow Alexis on  your social platform of choice, all the links will be in the show notes. Until next time, be a human.