Trusting your own judgement and living by your own values is hard enough as an individual but when you start your own business and leap into the world of business advice and entrepreneurial tips, it can become a whole new level of tough. Katie Skelton (she/her) talks to me about how she's navigating that herself and why it inspired her to focus on finding a community that cares.
Katie is a content strategist and business consultant, who works to help purpose-led entrepreneurs to start, grow and promote their business in a way that feels right for them. She also runs The Duck Pond, a membership and community for ethically-minded business owners.
Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/LittleGreenDuck/
I hang out on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/alexisbushnell/
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Join the club to learn more about ethical and effective social media marketing: https://socialmediaforhumans.club/
Chess post mentioned: https://www.instagram.com/p/COinfqMjwQy/
Voice over by Hawke Wood: https://www.spotlight.com/3490-9081-8844
- [Hawke] Hello, and welcome to Social Media for Humans. The podcast that empowers you to do social differently. Your hosts, Alexis Bushnell and her guest discuss their experience of social media as business owners, users and ultimately humans. With insights and advice to help you find an effective and ethical strategy that works for you. Grab yourself a drink and join the conversation. - Hello, hello. I am with wonderful Katie of the Duck Pond. Would you like to introduce yourself, please? - Yes. Well that was all the introduction I needed really, but hello, my name's Katie. My pronouns are she, her and I am, as Alexis said, I am the founder of a membership and community for ethical, sustainable and vegan brands called the Duck Pond and I also do some other stuff under the heading Little Green Duck as well, but the Duck Ponds my main thing at the moment. - It is a really lovely place and when I first, because you launched it quite recently, didn't you? - I did, yeah, I launched it in December, 2020. So we're still kind of just under six months old. - Hmm-mm, and when I first saw you talk about it, I was like, this is awesome because not just because of the giving a community to sort of sustainable business owners and stuff like that but because of what that provides because it can be really tough and I know that like, this is the conversation that happens a lot and there is like, how do I find X thing? How do I do this thing in an ethical way? How do I navigate running a business? Marketing a business? Being a business as an ethical person? How do I do those things in an ethical way? So is that what inspired you to create it? Or was it something else? - It was a combination of that, that has kind of evolved more since we opened because the whole point of it really was to open the Duck Pond and then mould it to what the members who joined at the beginning and then since actually wanted 'cause I didn't want to just start kind of chucking resources and content at people when actually it might not be what you necessarily need. So my initial motivation was, I was working with a lot of one-to-one clients and they were all mainly coming from LinkedIn and they were mainly people who had a bit more money behind their business, they're a bit more established and then when I started using Instagram for my business a bit more regularly, I was coming across businesses who were like, I really want you to, I really want to work with you but I don't have enough money. I really want to work with other people who are working in different areas but I don't have the budget to bring in experts because it's just me on my own. I'm selling stuff out of my garage or whatever. So I was just thinking, how can I provide those resources that people need to grow their businesses without it costing them hundreds, thousands of Pounds a month? Because as small business owners, we don't have that. So that was the initial motivation and then since it started, we've had the added complication challenge, probably a more positive word we could find to use that but just the added thing that in order to run a business that you're saying is sustainable or ethical, you have to be mindful of the way you're putting yourself out there, the way you're marketing yourself, the way you're speaking to people and so it's really nice, even for me as the person who runs it, it's as much of a learning curve for me as it is for everyone else to be able to discuss with other people, what do you think about this approach? And so, yeah, it's evolved but I like the way it's evolving. - Yeah, yeah, now I have to say, I really do too because actually when I spoke to Nancy on the podcast, one of the things we talked about was her, the three day sustainability-like business challenge that she ran which you took part in, did you not? - Yes, I did. - Yeah, and I was saying that that sharing of resources and the community that it builds even just in those three days was so powerful and so useful and I think it really helped the people who took part shift their business and make it more sustainable even in those three days. So having that is really, it really is invaluable, I think. And like, I know, am I allowed to talk about what we talk about in the Duck Pond? - Within reason, yes, of course. Duck Pond. - What happens in the Duck Pond stays in the Duck Pond. So we recently actually had a discussion about like the ethical side of marketing your business which is very interesting, especially to me. So yeah, it was really interesting to hear so many of the questions and the struggles that people come up against because marketing is sort of seen as this big, bad, evil thing that you can't do ethically, that is inherently inethical, inethical? Unethical, and it was really, really interesting. I think I messaged you afterwards actually and I was like, it really frustrates me because small businesses and ethical businesses especially, they really need to market themselves. Like we need you out there. We need people to know about you. We need you to be telling people, I do this, this is how you can work with me, this is why you should support me and it's those businesses that have the hardest time doing it. So you work with, as you said, like freelancers, very small businesses and also more established businesses who are working to be sustainable. So you must come up against that a lot. - I do, yeah and I think some people struggle with it more than others. Some people are more mindful of it than others and I have become, particularly this year, I've become kind of inundated with the noise of lots of, don't want to slag off the coaching world, but lots of online coaches who are peddling the like five, 10 figure months and like shaming you for not doing the way, things the way they should be and I think as, especially in the last year where we've all just been confined to barracks and doing like not really have anyone to bounce any ideas off, you know, on a day-to-day basis, it's quite difficult to tell the difference between what is the right thing to do ethically. What is the right thing to do according to your own values? Because I think everyone's kind of, everyone has a bit of a sliding scale of what they feel comfortable doing in terms of promoting themselves. So yeah, it's really difficult and it's not something that I really like to give advice on because A, I'm not an expert and B, I think it's different for every business and every person but I do think that the world is starting to wake up to all of these kinds of shouty, this is what you should be doing, this is the life you could be living if you work with me kind of things because that has always made me feel a bit uneasy but since I've been talking to people who say, well, if you want to grow your membership, that you need to do this. And I'm like, well, my membership is not gonna grow then because I'm not doing that. And it is, I've found a way to make it work and it works for me and I am not employing any of those tactics. So it is possible to grow a business without being like that. It's just finding the way the works for you, I think. - Yeah, yeah, definitely and I think that the other thing with, 'cause it is, it's different for every business and every individual. I think the other thing is that context matters because one of the big things that a lot of, and I will say this sort of one size fits all approach has snuck into people who were talking about ethical marketing as well which is a little bit frustrating. One of the things that I see a lot of people saying like, no, you can't do this, full stop, is saying like limited spaces or we're about to sell out of whatever and the reason that's become like a don't do that thing is because so many brands do it and it's not true. Like there is unlimited spaces, they're just saying it to get you to buy, to put pressure on you to buy right now but there are plenty of situations where you actually do have limited spaces. If you're running a training programme yourself and you only wanna have 10 or 15 people in it because then you can give them the one-to-one support they need, it's okay to say there are 15 spaces because there are actually 15 spaces and so I think that makes it much more complicated as well because you're not just able to check off the list and be like, well, okay, can I mark it like this? Can I market like that, tick, tick, no, I'm not gonna do that thing because that's bad because you also have to run it past like, well, what am I actually selling? What are my own values? Who am I speaking to? You know, it does complicate things. So how have you found trying to navigate that? Is there anything that's helped you? - I think, just by the way, I totally agree with you and I also realise that the Instagram post that I put out last week about ethical marketing kind of implies that this big list of things that I put out are all bad things and I'm having to, not having to, wanting to write a blog post about it because I've got so much more to say exactly because of the reasons you're saying because there is context, like the list that I put out was like, not don't do it, it was more, think about how you're using these things. So I've forgotten what your question is but hopefully I'll answer it by talking about, how have I navigated it. Just being really intentional about what I'm doing and thinking things through before I just put stuff out there. So like, if I'm reading my sales page, I'm reading it from a kind of, from a customer's point, potential customer's point of view but also from my like moral compass point of view as well and just making sure that everything aligns with how I've been feeling about marketing in general and yeah, that's it really just kind of being really mindful about stuff and thinking about how the words I'm using and the tactics I'm using could impact someone and is it something that I would feel comfortable buying if I was a buyer of that product or service and if that ticks the boxes for me, then it ticks the boxes and I'm sure there's still stuff that I'm doing that is not a 100% even on my own moral compass but it will come to me at some point and I'll go, oh, I feel a bit uncomfortable about that right now and I'll change it. So yeah, it's definitely a moving feast. It's a constant learning curve that's for sure. - Hmm, and I think that's really important though, is to accept that you're never gonna be perfect and that you are gonna do things that future you is like, ooh, that does not sit right but it's not helpful to sit and beat yourself up and tell yourself that, you know, you are a terrible unethical business and you should just close down because (indistinct) have to just go, well, I know better now, so I'll change it. I think that's something that people get stuck in and again, when I spoke to Nancy, it was, she was saying like people, because of A, the external shaming of you're doing this, you're doing sustainability wrong, you're doing ethics wrong, it then triggers that sort of internal panic that, you know, you're not gonna, you can't do it right and, you know, you're just bad for sort of, for doing that thing, for not knowing better at the time. - Yeah. - We can't know everything and I think this is, again, like the power of those communities is that you are able to bounce ideas off people. You are able to get a broader spectrum of how your idea affects other people because even if you run it past your own sort of moral code, you might then find that you speak to somebody from a totally different walk of life and they're like, well, actually that would make me feel this way because XYZ, and you're like, well, I didn't know that because I have no idea how you experience the world. So I do think it's really important to bring your ideas to a variety of people and also to forgive yourself for not being perfect. - Definitely, I totally agree and I think actually people also really appreciate seeing, there's something really authentic about seeing someone going on that journey themselves as well. So like realising for yourself, okay, something like, there were loads of things I did when I first launched the Duck Pond that I now would not ever do and every time I've kind of made that change, I've spoken to people about it and I've communicated it because I think it's useful for people to see, people really appreciate the fact that you're going, look, I'm not like, this is not just my perfect Insta world. It's like, it's just a human trying to do their best and making mistakes and then moving on from them and learning from them and if you can learn from them too, great but I'm not telling you have to learn from them. So yeah, I think it's quite nice and it's felt quite freeing for me to just be able go, look, I did this back in December and I'm not comfortable with it anymore, so I'm not gonna do it anymore and if that kind of makes people think, oh wow, she's actually really trying or, oh, I do that, I might have a look at how I'm doing things just in case that doesn't sit right with me as well. I think that it's useful and it's been, and as you say, just having a community around who are like the word like, the phrase like-minded is bandied around a lot, but like-minded people, people who are thinking the same way as you, people who are trying to do good and being able to bounce ideas off them without them all going, oh no, that's terrible, I'm leaving you immediately is really nice. - Yeah, yeah, it really is. It does make a difference. And yeah, that is something, the sort of non-judgemental side of things is so important because like I said before, like it can be really scary to put your idea out there if you are worried that people are rather than offering you like constructive advice and being like, well, this is why that could be a problem. They just go, you're an awful person. You're not an ethical business at all. It stops you from seeking out advice and I do think that with social media happens quite a lot, like a lot, it happens quite a lot. You know, you do, you can put yourself out there and the masses can decide that you're an awful person but I think a lot of the times when that happens, it is actually because nobody, because that person has not done like you've done and been honest about their journey from the start because I think when that happens, a lot of the time, it's like they get found out for doing something or they, you know, they do something publicly and it's not okay and the immediate reaction is like, you have told us that you are XYZ thing and you have purported to know and be an expert on, you know, whatever and be totally ethical and moral and what have you and then there's suddenly this bang, no, this is proof that you're not. Whereas if like you're doing, you share your journey and you're honest about that through the whole thing and you're like, hey, I've just learned this. Like I discovered not long after I started talking a lot more about accessibility in social media that actually PDFs can be very inaccessible depending on how you sign them and a lot of my downloads will be in PDF format and I put out posts and I was like, just learned this, oh no. Like if anybody has any resources, I would appreciate them but also if you didn't know this, then now you know and you can do some research as well. We can figure it out together. I think that is what makes the difference, is that people can then say that you are not just saying I'm an ethical business owner, I care about accessibility, I care about diversity, whatever. You're actually saying like, I'm learning along the way. Like, I'm not perfect. I'm figuring out as we go and sorry if I messed up. - Yeah, exactly and also just I'm one person and it's quite difficult running a business as it is and all these hats that are piling up, like you start with like five hats that you wear and then I think that like every week you get an extra one put on, oh, I must think about this now. I must think about that. And my like Asana boards get wider and wider with things that I need to think about and it can be quite overwhelming. So I think just being able to share that knowledge with people and just sharing, like you said, like you learn something, you go, oh my goodness, I didn't know this before. Did you know this? It's really nice and that's another great thing, oh, I sound like I'm doing a massive plug of the Duck Pond and another great thing about just community in general, the fact that you see people doing something slightly different to you and you think, oh, that would fit quite well with me as well. There's one person, Rachel, who posts stuff in the Duck Pond all the time and basically every time she does it, I'm like, that's brilliant. Must do it too. So she's like really inspiring and I think it like, all of these ideas and all of these posts and all of these people doing and learning different things starts a bit of a snowball effect. So rather than us all just being on our own path, we're kind of venturing into other people's paths as well and picking up bits of other people's knowledge which is really nice and it's nice when it's a smaller group and not just the whole of social media trying to teach you stuff. - Yes, yeah, definitely, definitely. And I do think there's so much value in picking and choosing the bits that you add to your business as well and I think it's so tempting, especially early on. I think it's so tempting to just look around at somebody you admire and be like, I'm gonna do it that way and you basically take their business model and plonk yourself into it and then try and make it fit somehow and I think as you sort of go through and as you're in business longer and you get to know your audience more as well and you get to know yourself more and you start to trust your own business decisions, it gets easier to then look around at other people and be like, yeah, actually, no, I should change this thing that I'm doing for that thing because that would work way better for me and I do think it's really important to allow yourself to do that and if you're listening and you're at the start of your business journey, please give yourself permission to do that like right now. Do it from the start 'cause it took me quite a while to get to that point of like, I thought, this is not sustainable for me to do it this way that everybody's doing it. I have to, you know, divert from that course. So I do think allowing yourself to be inspired by multiple people and not feel bad for sort of taking those ideas and moulding them into your own business. - Yeah, yeah, definitely and also equally not being scared to dismiss things that you know won't work for you. Like if you, just because you think something is an amazing idea for somebody's business, it doesn't necessarily mean that it's an amazing idea for yours. So like a lot of these things it's quite useful just to kind of, I just write everything down. So shove everything on an ideas list and then once in a while scroll through everything and just go, I don't know why I wrote that down, I'm getting rid of that now and it's quite nice to just kind of, yes, I think something's a good idea but having the confidence to dismiss it as unsuitable is quite nice. It's quite empowering and just saying this now makes me realise that I've come quite far 'cause that never used to be me. - Yeah, you are right. 'Cause it can be tempting to just take on everything. Especially if you think things are like a good idea, even outside of your business setting, you know, if you see a sort of a, your friend is doing like zero waste and the way they're doing it is a specific way and you're like, oh, that's really good, that's really important, I wanna do that. It doesn't mean it's gonna work for you. Like you might have to find a different way. Zero waste might not be for you, it's okay. - Yeah, yeah. Well, it's just the same with anything in life, isn't it? Everyone's on their own little journey and you can't just, even as much, you could just pick one person in the world and try to do everything exactly the same as them and even that wouldn't work because everyone's got a different brain. - Mmm. Yes, it's true, it's true. So you also work, aside from the Duck Pond, you also work with slightly bigger businesses. Did you always work with sustainable businesses or did you move into that at a later date? - I moved into that. So very short potted history of me. I worked in the broadcast industry for 15 years. So I was a commercial manager managing outside broadcast projects and budgets and stuff and writing big bits for kind of stuff like Wimbledon and other big things. So it was quite a different world for me and not particularly eco-friendly although I'm still in contact with some of my old contacts and it's definitely, the broadcast industry is definitely changing in terms of how they make productions. So I did that. I was made redundant and started a copywriting business back in 2017, 18? I've lost track of what year it is 'cause years keep disappearing. - Yeah. I started a copywriting business and I working with just contacts from the broadcast industry initially because they were the people who knew me. They knew that I could write, they knew what I could deliver and that I was trustworthy. So I started doing that. Then we went travelling. So we sold everything we owned, not including our children and, well that might make travelling a bit easier, (indistinct) house and everything in it and we went travelling for nine months. It was supposed to be a year but we ended up coming back in March, 2020 because of COVID and when I came back, I thought right, now is the time to actually start because writing for a living is really hard going if you don't really care about what you're writing about and I didn't, like as much as I loved my time in broadcasting, it was not, and it was technical as well, it was not my area of love. I did not love it, I just knew it. So I thought, right, okay, I'm gonna specialise now and I just happened to connect with Lars and Helena from Ailuna right at the beginning and I've been working with them ever since and that was kind of the start and it's just snowballed. I just started kind of connecting with people on Instagram and LinkedIn who were more aligned with my own values and my own interests and yeah, it's gone from there. - Hmm, so you found most of your business through social media then? - Pretty much all of it I think. I think I've maybe had, initially I did. So to begin with, it was all through social media because I had no contacts. Like we were locked down, I have no contacts in the world. So social media was the only way that I can connect with these people. Since then there's been some referrals and stuff like that. So it's not a 100% social media driven now but it's definitely what kick-started my business and kick-started this whole new network of people that I have because I basically just cleared out my LinkedIn and started following people who were in the industry that I wanted to work with and that's how it all started. - That's a really, really good idea but like, I think a lot of people, whether they're changing careers or whatever, they will keep or even if when they first start a Facebook page, this drives me up the wall, they will just invite or keep everybody, everybody they know in their life. Absolutely everybody and one of the things I find myself saying all the time is like, just do not invite absolutely everybody to follow your Facebook page or follow you on Instagram or whatever because it's gonna kill your engagement rate, like it really is, those people, they're gonna support you initially because they love you and they think you're wonderful but they don't care about what you're doing, most of them, you know? They're not interested in the actual content of what you're doing. So after the initial, yay, go you, period of time, they are gonna stop engaging but they are still gonna be there and social networks will see that as you are putting out bad content because the people who follow your content, don't engage with it. So to clear it out and be like, right, I am shifting to this thing. I am gonna get rid of everybody who is not interested in that thing is actually a really, really good idea. Was that scary for you? - Initially, yeah, because my whole career was a massive part of my life and I kind of felt like I was just wiping out a load of people that I'd worked with really closely for a really long time but I just realised that if, the people that really matter to me, I'm friends with in real life or on Facebook or might like they follow me on my personal Instagram page. So it's not like I'm not gonna be in contact with them anymore. So I was really, really critical about who is really likely to, sounds a bit harsh but benefit me by being in my feed. So do I wanna see what they're putting out? Do they wanna see what I'm putting out? And if the answers no on either side then bye, bye basically and there were some exceptions, there's some people that I think, well, okay, I actually really enjoy reading their content even though it's not specifically sustainability or ethics related and so there's a nice mix now but there's some people, like a lot of the engineers I used to work with just signed up for LinkedIn profiles because they were told to and they don't use LinkedIn anymore. Most of them are retired. Like I don't need, I don't need like retired engineers not engaging with my content, so, but yeah, it was scary kind of thinking, am I gonna do this? But the actual doing felt quite nice and it really felt good when I started seeing content in my feed that was relevant and you're right about people kind of cheering you on to begin with, it doesn't happen so much on LinkedIn 'cause not many of my friends and family use it but everybody followed me on Instagram to begin with and then everyone kind of tapered off. So yeah, my advice is unfollow your mom. (laughing) - I like that advice, I do. Yeah, yeah and I do think so many people have, and a lot of it is that sort of vanity metrics thing that people are so hung up on the follower numbers and like followers. I mean, especially right now, especially the way social media works right now, followers means squat, like really they mean nothing. Reach is so much more important if you're worried about getting in front of other people. So yeah, please don't get hung up on your follower numbers, it's not worth it. - No, I totally agree and it's actually, that's been quite useful for me because I've got another Instagram account that was just basically, I started it because I wanted to post all of my food so I could remember what I cooked and then meal plan around it and then that turned into a page with a, like, not a massive following but a bigger following than I've got on my Little Green Duck Pond account on Instagram and it was really useful to see that the page that I am posting on regularly that at the time had like 300 followers, the new one was getting way more engagement than the one that I was posting my food on because I was more involved in it. I was more engaged myself with it and so it doesn't matter whether it like, one account can have 4,000 followers and like you get 20 people liking it just because they happen to scroll past it and then nothing else or you can have 300 really engaged followers and that's so much more valuable and so much more rewarding than just collecting a load of people basically. No one wants to just be collected. - Unless you're a Pokemon. - True, yes, yeah. - I think you made a good point now though, is that what makes it a different, especially on Instagram, what makes the difference is being actively on the platform. If you post seven days a week but if you're not involved in the conversations on the platform, if you're not talking to the people who are following you, if you're not in your comments and scrolling through hashtags and commenting on there, you are not gonna get anywhere meaningful because that is part of it. Like the clue is in the name, social media, like as much as a lot of people have forgotten this, it is still the core of a lot, I'm not gonna say all platforms, but a lot of platforms. So yeah, I do. Did you find it difficult to find sustainability sort of ethical businesses on Instagram to engage with initially? - Not really, no, I found just a few people who I liked their content and I liked talking to them and then I just didn't really force it. I think it just all quite happened quite naturally. So I would connect with someone like you and then you would share something from someone else and I think, oh, they're interesting and then it just kind of gradually, just, it's almost like joining the dots between this community that already, 'cause I'm sure it already existed before I turned up. It's not like I've come in and I've brought everybody together but that's what it feels like to me, I feel like I've come in and like I've built this community that I love around me and I really liked that. I like the fact that I haven't just gone out and blindly followed anyone because otherwise it's just too much and another thing, I was gonna say something else about social media. Oh, another thing that you're totally right about social media being social but I think that's another real plus point for having a niche or an area that you really care about or that you're really interested in because there is nothing worse than going out and engaging with a load of businesses that you're not interested in, you're just doing it because you have to do engagement. Whereas if it comes naturally, if you're just going, oh, I'm really interested in what this person has to say because it is my genuine passion, it's so easy to just go and have conversations with people because you actually want to. Whereas I think if I was still in like the broadcast world, I would have to be forcing myself to go and engage with people because it's not where my passion lies. So yeah, niche down everyone. - Yeah, yeah, no, I totally agree and I do think as well, you don't have to niche down because I do think niching gets a bad wrap I think, people are like A, I don't wanna exclude people, B, I can help everybody. - Yeah that makes sense. - On sort of social media, you don't have to niche down in a specific area of what you do, like niching down can literally be in talking about things that you're passionate about. - Yeah definitely. - And following people who are also passionate about those things. You don't have to say like, if you're a coach, you don't have to say, I am a coach for these specific people in this specific industry with these problems. - Yeah. - It can be, I am a coach who cares about sustainability. I am a coach who cares about mental health and the overlap of coaching and therapy. I am a coach who, it doesn't have to be something that feels natural, I guess, that you would put on your LinkedIn profile, I guess, like it doesn't have to be, I am a blank, blank, blank coach or whatever. - Yeah. - You can niche down literally just by pulling parts of yourself to the fore that you are happy to share and talk about and that you're really interested in because that is going to open you up to those communities and get you involved in those communities and inevitably, there are going to be people who are interested in whatever it is that you do in those communities because those communities are huge, whatever they are. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely and I really like the approach of just listing what you care about and other people who care about these things come and care with me. That's a really nice approach and it feels like a much more natural approach than going, I am a coach that works with seven figure women who are five foot four and under- (laughing) - Shout out to the seven-figure, pocket rocket women. But yeah, yeah and I think it makes, like you say, it makes engagement much easier. It also makes content creation much easier because you don't have to force yourself into that like specific thing. It gives you a, especially if you choose several things, if you're not just saying I'm gonna talk about whatever my business is and this one thing that is important to me. If you give yourself a little bit more scope, you then give yourself so much variety to talk about and things will come up naturally in your life and in your business that will then lend themselves to content and so it makes content creation less stressful and horrible because there are so many people who sort of, they're like, oh right, okay, I know I need to batch create content because it's important and it's quicker. So I'm gonna sit down for two hours today and do content and they sit down and they're like, I hate it. I don't want to, I'm not inspired. I've nothing to say, I really don't wanna write another dry post about why you should buy this thing from me. Whereas if you're able to pull from things that have happened in your life, like say, you sit down to do it on a Monday and over the weekend, your dog did something a little bit crackers and you generally, you allow yourself to talk about your dog on your social media. You can mention that, maybe that ties into whatever service you offer or it's somehow, I actually recently put out a post, I am now addicted to chess. I watched the Queens Gambit- - I saw that. - And I literally put out a post the other day about how social media is like chess. Now I'm not kidding, I will link the post in the show notes but because it was so like, A, different and it wasn't a generic social media tip, a generic engage with me post. It got a lot of engagement and people were interested because they were like, oh, well that's really weird. Now you put it that way. That's yeah, okay. Also, no, I don't play chess. - Yeah, did anyone play a game with you? - No, come and play chess with me. - I'm terrible at chess, you would just beat me and it would just be boring for you. - Actually, one of my best friends took pity on me and offered to play with me and so we started a game and she said, I don't know how the pieces move and I said, I think maybe, either you need to learn that first or maybe we just don't bother. (laughing) So, yes. What were we saying? Yeah, bring in the other parts of yourself to your business to help you niche down. Yes, definitely, definitely, good advice. - Yeah and I think also just allowing yourself to accept that it's going to be a moving thing. Like you don't, you're not born with a set of interests that then stay with you throughout your entire life. Like at 14, I was into like, Take That and having an awful haircut and now I'm okay, maybe something (indistinct) character. - I was just gonna say, (indistinct) Take That, yeah. - I'm glad you picked that one. But that's what I mean, like your interests can change from week to week, from month to month and it's okay to go, actually that stuff I was talking about six months ago, doesn't really interest me. Not as important to me anymore. I've moved on. This is what I'm talking about at the moment and that will probably change again and you don't have to be, you don't have to pigeonhole yourself because I don't like people pigeonholing me. So I don't, I'm not gonna pigeon hole myself. So I think just being kind to yourself is nice and just seeing what comes, seeing like and speaking like you because that is what people actually want to see, they don't care about, they do care about your business if they wanna work with you but actually most people care about the person, the human behind the business, so. - Yeah, yeah and I think on that sort of evolving interests now, I think it is so important to let yourself evolve like that and to realise that there is gonna be just natural ebb and flow in what you want to talk about and in what is happening in your business and in your life because that's just how it goes. So, you know, you might be really into a specific thing. You might be really into Take That one week, might inspire a social media post- - (indistinct), isn't it? - But even if that social post does really well and you're still into Take That the next week, you don't have to post about it again. You know, like you can mix it up because you are a complex human being, but it's okay, not mould yourself, to sort of flow around those things and share them as they naturally come up. - Yeah, just do what feels right to you. - Hmm-mm, well, I think that's a very good point to end on. - Yes. - Do what feels right to you. Where can people find you talking about how you're doing things that feel right to you? - So you can find me, I mainly hang out on Instagram. It's my place at the moment although you can find me in other places. So Instagram on @LittleGreenDuckPond, you can check out the rest of my business and the Duck Pond at littlegreenduck.co.uk and if you want to connect with me on LinkedIn or Facebook, I'm Little Green Duck or Katie Skelton, respectively, it's quite a long list of different names, isn't it? - It is, but I will put them all in the show notes. So it doesn't matter, just leave the link, I'll find you. Well thank you very much for being here. It's been lovely. - Thank you for having me. It's been a delight. - [Hawke] A big thank you to Louise, who is our first Patron. They are supporting the show on Patreon. If you would like to do the same, you can donate any amount you like each month on Patreon or you can join the Social Media for Humans Club if you are a business owner where you will get access to loads of courses and support and inspiration and bonus trainings and lots of good stuff, it's to help you with your social media as a business and if you do not have a business, we have a club for individuals as well which offers you some journal prompts, action steps and things like that based on each podcast episode and also some other bonus fun community stuff. So if you want to support the podcast, we would love to have you. - [Narrator] If you want more regular reminders to find your own way to use social media, follow Alexis on your social platform of choice, all the links will be in the show notes. Until next time, be a human.