Always a hot topic, today we're talking copyright and why you can't just use any old image you find on Google with Catherine Berry (she/her).
Catherine is a photographer who teaches how to take your own photographs ('Selfies for your business' and product shots) as well as offers bespoke services including brand photography, Gif making, virtual photoshoots, video editing and a 'send your bits and bobs' service for a set of 'on brand' photographs. Small business owners love that Catherine is always enthusiastic and delivers her top notch, creative expertise on brief; all done with a touch of fun!
Catherine is based in Swanscombe, Kent but often travels to London and other UK locations.
When she's not out photographing she loves to find an outdoor adventure. She's been known to climb a mountain and take on marathon distance obstacle races, amongst other crazy pursuits. Quite at home neck deep in mud!
Catherine's also blessed with a wonderful family despite keeping her on her toes, she wouldn’t be without their love and support.
Other things mentioned.
PDF Download for help with using your photographs creatively: https://www.entirelycatherinephotography.com/consistent-photo-content-help
Photographers United Pro (FB Group): https://www.facebook.com/groups/135206643871630
Not for profit visual arts rights management organisation: DACS.org.uk
I hang out on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/alexisbushnell/
Find me on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/SocialMediaForHumans
Join the club to learn more about ethical and effective social media marketing: https://socialmediaforhumans.club/
Voice over by Hawke Wood: https://www.spotlight.com/3490-9081-8844
Support the show (https://www.patreon.com/socialmediaforhumans)
[Hawke] Hello and welcome to Social Media for Humans, the podcast that empowers you to do social differently. Your host, Alexis Bushnell, and her guests discuss their experience of social media as business owners, users, and ultimately humans, with insights and advice to help you find an effective and ethical strategy that works for you. grab yourself a drink and join the conversation. [Alexis] Hello hello, I am here with wonderful talented Catherine! Do introduce yourself [Catherine] Alexis thank you thank you so much for inviting me to speak with you today I am Catherine, as you say. I am a brand photographer for social media and website and marketers who are marketing online, looking for awesome visuals, getting them to stand out and connect with their audience. A little bit of personality, a little bit of fun, something different and not all just photos. I do quite a bit of other stuff too Alexis so, you know - You do - Yes - So as a photographer you must run into some sort of copyright issues where people are maybe finding your photos on Google, or your website, or even on your social media and think "Oh that's a great photo, I am going to use that on my own social media, or my website, or somewhere" and that is not legal as far as I'm aware, so would you like to sort of explain why it's not really okay to start stealing photos from anybody, but especially from professional photographers - Oh Alexis, this is this is, so many like, whole question there's like so many bits of wonderful yeah the whole yeah. First of all yes, I am photographer, I am not a solicitor, I don't deal with law, but I do understand what are my rights as a photographer, and then what hopefully a little bit about what, you know, what you can do with photographs and how you can ethically and carefully you know probably use them, without stealing, which is a lovely word that you used in this, without stealing those photos, yeah, and before before I do sort of talk a bit about that, I don't want people to feel this is, I think people feel photographers and other creatives can come a bit across a bit grouchy when it comes to copyright. I think it can be a bit like "Oh oh, photographer, it's just a photo, I'm just taking I'm just gonna, it's just, I've just found it on Google" they say "I've just found it on Google, shouldn't I just be using it?" you know, I think if you kind of think a little bit more about who created that, the time, the effort the expense in their, you know, in their investment in themselves, because all creatives, not just photographers, you know invest a lot of time, a lot of money into their work so by taking, let's use their taking, there's stealing, taking, a photo from somewhere and posting it on your social media yeah, potentially for the gains of your business, for you to make sales at the end of the day you are doing a disservice, in the very least a disservice to that creative, so, you know, you take a photo, let's go with the Google example, because actually I have a good example from someone. I belong to a group of photographers, I'm going to give them a mention, Photographers United, on Facebook. Any photographer, come and join the group, because if you get, there's a lot of this sort of thing, getting stuck on somebody stolen my photos, now what do I do? Type question, so this happened to someone from the group here, he took a photo of fish and chips for an ad campaign, I think it was an ad campaign on editorial and for a big supermarket, now that lovely fish and chips photo then started being stolen, and has now because it's been stolen and used across lots of different people's websites, so different fish and chip shops, I think some japanese you know looking at british sites to look like that you know, very british sites, because that has now been used on Google, on various websites and various social media places, that has now devalued the piece of work, that piece of, that fish and chip photo, so - Yeah so this guy he's had it, he's taken his photo, the supermarket would have bought a license to use that photo, they would have bought a license for the use of it within their campaign, the scope of that use, like if they wanted to use it around the world or, you know, however far that's going they've completely nailed down what they have paid for their their use of it, now if somebody just goes "Well I'm just going to put it on my fish and chip website" and they haven't paid, let's say they haven't paid for any type of use of it, then now that you know, it appears on one fish and chip site, so then the next fish and chip site thinks like "Oh I'm going to use that now" and the next fish and chips is "I'm going to oh it's just on there, it's on Google, doesn't belong to anyone there's no credit on there, so it can't belong to anyone, doesn't matter if I use it, it's only a tiny photo in the corner of my website" you know doesn't matter. Now if that photographer now wants to go and sell that to let's say not necessarily another supermarket, but to another, somewhere else, maybe they want a fish and chip brand that would like to use that photograph, or that set of photos, that's it, that company, that brand goes to Google and goes "Oh but hold on, it's being used all over the place, I don't want that photo!" So then they don't play and buy it whereas quite simply asking permission for that photo might get you, if you're a very very small brand, that photographer, who might not want necessarily want their 10, 15, 20 quid out of it, let's say they might say, yeah go for it, just use it, that's fine, pleaseput a credit on there for me or they might say okay, where are you using, it how far are you using it, what's the scope of your use and I'll give you a price that suits that, you'll be like yes, fine, I can pay that, so you know you are completely devaluing that, like by taking it, that's that's the long story short really and you know - Yeah, so it is it's having a financial impact, as well as an emotional impact I guess on the creatives ,and the photographers who are putting in that work, it is actually financially impacting them as well - Absolutely as I said you knowcreators and heavily they, you know, investing their time, their money in themselves and in their business, why shouldn't they have be paid for the use of their work? Why shouldn't we empower the creators to make a sustainable living? You know, by paying them justly we would be, that's how we should be thinking that as marketers, you know, people who are using that social media and if you have a brand, if you have a business, if you are selling and you are making money, why should the creator of it, let's go beyond photos, let's say somebody's made a diagram, or a drawing, you know, people don't necessarily see those as something that's owned by someone, but they are, I think we very easily, perhaps more easily understand copyright when it comes to like music, because you know in the old days when we used to do the stop, play, tape, listen we knew we shouldn't be taping it off of the radio, we shouldn't be taping it, we weren't going to do anything, that's our private use, and you know nothing, we shouldn't have been taping, we should have been paying for the use of that, but you know we now know, because of that, they'll be, we don't we don't expect to take a piece of music, put it over it, play over our video, and not pay a license fee for that music, people will do it you know, and sometimes they'll get caught doing it, and then they have to pay for it, or to remove it, and that's the same as a photo, if you get caught, because you possibly will get caught, if you steal a photo and, you know, or borrow or use or however you want to put it, you know, you know you can possibly, there are actually, and this is useful for any photographers who are listening or other creators are listening, you know there are companies out there who will search for you, and they do take a commission yeah, from any any fees having to be paid or anything that, you know, that gets found, but yeah there are companies out there who will help you to track down if, you know, if you're a bit bigger than me, I'm only a small photographer, I call myself a small photographer because, you know, in the world of brands I work with small businesses and so it's not, it's different for me, I've worked very personally with people, it's quite easy for somebody to say to me Catherine, I love that photo, can I pay for a use of it, yes you can, that would be lovely, please do, you know, it happens quite a lot at things like events if I take photos at events and people will go oh can I use that photo, yeah sure 10, 15 pounds that's usually my use fee if you're using on a blog, one you know that's it's not a huge amount for me, but for some, perhaps a slightly more artistic or commercial or editorial photographer it's a big deal, it's our living you know, living, it's our right to be paid and compensated for the work that wedo - Yeah that recognition and it's the compensation for what we do, that's the kind of key thinking - I think some of it,sort of, for small business owners I know lot of people, they're conscious of the cost, and I think when it's not a tangible thing it's easier to not see it as theft, or as breach of copyright or whatever, I think if you think of it in terms of whatever you sell, if somebody started creating the exact same thing and selling it to other people, you would have a problem with that, if somebody took stuff something from your shop and started and sold it on, that would be a problem and it is the same thing even though it's not a hard copy thing, it's still somebody's property, somebody has put the work in, the effort in, the time in to create something, it belongs to them, you have to ask for permission to use it, or pay for them the right to use it - Absolutely, that's a very good way you know, clear to make sense, you know, if it does, it makes sense that if somebody is taking something that you have created, whatever it is in any way, whether it's even your words, we know that you put your heart and soul into a blog, or into your website, or into some sort of lead magnet or something you've written, and you know you then find somebody has copied that, or used it somewhere and you're like well hold on a minute, I have created that I think if there's there's three sort of things to think about, if you are using a photo there are three, and it's business related, you're doing one of three things most likely, you're doing some sort of PR, so why are you doing that? Because you want to gain reputation, what's that going to do for you, increase your sales with any luck, if you are doing some sort of ad that's more of a fairly obvious, I'm going to pay for that and use because you're going to pay to advertise using a photo let's say, or a drawing, or a picture, or something that's been created, what's it gonna do for you, increase your sales, if you are making money this is good, this is the thing, are we getting the thing, and you know in terms of commercial use, if you're going to take a photo, take a drawing, take a diagram, take something and you're going to put it on side of a mug and then sell it you are making money from somebody else's work, so anything you are doing, you know, and I think the one that's the gray area is that PR one because you think oh, I've not made money from that, putting that on my Instagram, or I put that on my Facebook, I've not made any money from that I've just put it there, I've just used it in the background after adding some text and turned it into a meme or what, you know, I've not really, I've not made any money from that, you're gaining reputation because you are going to make sales, that is that in a nutshell, is that making good sense I think? - Yeah yeah, and I think that is something that I think because so many people use social media for personal as well, it does create confusion around it and there is this sort of attitude of well, it's only social media, you know it's only an Instagram post, why why does it matter if I grab a photo from Google and and share it? Why does it matter if I screenshot this and share it?? Because there is that sort of conflation and that confusion around personal and business and what what counts kind of thing, but yeah if you are, your business social media it is all a PR exercise, it is all promotion, even the stuff that isn't promotion, your business social media presence, whether that's a photo of you and your family going for a walk, or whether it's buy my stuff, it's amazing, it is all working together to grow your brand, and to get you known, and to therefore make you sales. Just because that one photo that you use didn't have a buy my stuff call to action on it doesn't mean it is not leading to more sales right now or in the future, and so if you are sharing stuff on your work socials on your businesses social media, you need to realize that it is it is driving sales, it is essentially an ad, whether it's an outward ad or not, so yeah it is it is and I do think around sort of small business I was like big businesses and corporations are really bad at this as well - Oh yeah, absolutely - Yeah a lot of people stealing struggle with it, and I think some of it is the the money issue it's well I'm not really making enough to, you know, to get someone in, to buy some photos, to whatever and part of it is not we don't have a lawyer on staff, we don't, we haven't been through a training program about copyright and what is okay, we're sort of all figuring it out as we go, so what sort of excuses, reasons, problems, do you think sort of have that they're like well, I can use it in this instance, or I could probably use that one but I won't use that one like how are people reasoning with themselves to allow themselves to breach copyright excuses, I think I mean the we've said about the Google way, I found it on Google, it must be okay to use it, well you know, no, I think we've kind of covered that really the whole Google bit, and I don't know who owns it, that's a good one, that's it I don't know whoowns it, well you know you can do a little bit of digging, a little bit like Google searching, and you may find the original creator, if, and this does happen, it's become what they call an orphaned work, so it means it hasn't, nobody really does know who it belongs to and it might be that it's an older photo, it might be something it's lost it's ownership as such and you can actually apply for an orphaned work license by the government, so that is really you know if you're going to use an older photo don't just go and use it, because you could find yourself at the end of a lawsuit, you don't want do it yourself but I don't know, just apply for the license, it's not difficult go on the government website, fill in the form and that's it, then you can use the photo, you know, assuming the license is agreed, then you can, they may say oh we do know who this belongs to and there you go, you get the permission and it's okay, so that's a definitely definitely worth looking at that, oh it was taken on the phone, that's a whole that's okay, yeah, all right, it was only taken on a phone, it's not a proper, you know, it's not, I think people forget that the copyright is owned by the person who took the photo, the actual photograph taker, so whoever took the photo owns the phone, owns the copyright of the photo and when you are having like, let's say a brand set and you agree with your photographer, your photographer will have a license for you, and some photographers will say hey, have all the copyright, and there you go use them, do whatever you like with them and that's fine, and in a sense you know I would do that, but I don't give the copyright, I give a license to say you can do pretty much whatever you like with them, and you know I want to know the scope of what you're agreeing, you know, most photographers to know the scope of what you want to do so their questions to you would be where are you using them, you know, is it digital, is it a print, you know what's the scope of that print and how long do you intend to be using them, is it going to be like a three year license, a five year license, maybe a ten year license, and the location, is it is it UK, is it European, is it US, worldwide, are you wanting to use them everywhere, no because if you think about all of those different you know permutations and what the bigger the use, if you're going to put it on a billboard it's a bigger, much bigger use than if you're just going to put it on your Instagram account, so I'm going to want to charge you a lot more if you want to put it up I would love if you do, you know, also they probably get you to agree any artistic changes that you might want to make as well, so if you as we all seem to do even when you have this amazes me you have a lovely brand set of photos taken, and yet you'll still stick a filter on it when you put it on your Instagram, okay that's fine, I'm okay with that, it's okay people do, you know, I spend hours editing a photo, there's something you can't do oh well it works as long yeah what your photographer will probably do is agree that it's within your agreed brand structure, and also within keeping of me and my style, this, it might not be at all just not let's say used unethically or used against him, I believe so yeah that sort of sense that would be, might be some of the artistic changes that you might might have as a caveat but yeah the whole it was taken on my phone, it's the same, it applies the same, you take the photo the photo belongs to you, if a wedding photographer has taken a ton of wedding photos and you see it on their website, oh I'm just gonna screenshot and take that off of there, well you're discrediting that you're probably not even putting a credit, and that drives me a little bit bananas okay, you're not even crediting that wedding photographer when you go and share this is a nice photo with so-and-so, well yeah that person did some work and they did they they at least deserve for you to message them and say can I do this, please, how much money will it cost me or can I do yeah, again photographer might go yeah, go ahead, please do share, just credit me, I'm happy with that, that might be the very least and, you know, things like there was no copyright mark, no little "c" in the corner, there was no copyright mark, there was no this photo belongs to or, you know, well I think that's a little bit of an old issue, you know, that's a little bit, we're going beyond that excuse now, you know, they're probably like this now, so see, that's not an excuse and it won't hold up in a court of law as far as I know, I'm not a lawyer yeah, oh there's another good one, about how about I took a photo of a photo, who does copyright belong to - Oh that's agood question, I would guess the copyright owner of the photo the original photo - Yes, exactly, it's not it's frowned upon, and that goes with taking a photo of a piece of art as well so, you know, like when I say I'm going to paint traditionally a painting or something, and so, you know, don't you know, it's if you are taking a photo of something then you need to have permission to take that photo of the photo, or of people, or a piece of something, so yeah it's not it's not, that's not a way of getting around, not a way of getting out there at all say for a minute, you know, there is a little bit of confusion over things like stock photography sites and the words royalty-free, I'm just gonna go because even I just before this call I thought I'm going to just check my meaning of royalty free, because royalty free in itself just makes you think free, I' don't have to pay, that's it, nothing, but that's not the case, royalty free is actually talking again, you have to pay for the type of use and the scope of use on something, so going to stock sites it's a great way of perhaps collecting some photos, if you need photos and can't perhaps commission a set for yourself at this point, and but you just be careful of the restrictions, and look into the terms and conditions of that stock site and the photos that you're using, because again sometimes it's not for, like, a commercial use, again going back to that I'm putting on a t-shirt or something it might not have a commercial, it might not be able to be used in an ad campaign, it might not be able to be used for PR unless you pay for that particular license so be, yeah, a little bit wary of, like, what, you know, what you go and use, and also that the stock site hasn't somehow stolen those photos themselves I'm just going to say that, I'm just going to say it like that, so be careful you, as the user it comes down to you to actually have properly checked, and that also just, as a bigger sort of picture for people who have more than one person in their team, if you're a small business and you have other people you, as the owner of your website, you as the owner of your business are responsible to know and check the copyright of whatever it is you're using, so I think that's that's as clear as I can can be - Yeah yeah, no I think that is right and it is, I do think sort of stock photo sites can be a minefield because they purport to be totally free, that's sort of how they market themselves and I do think again I think it causes confusion for people, and I do think it sort of adds to this oh well, I don't need to pay to use photos or whatever generally so yeah, it's great to have those things available, but it is also sort of, it has a downside to it, I think, for the creatives - Yeah why do you think it adds to that confusion and that sort of well, you know, why also like why would I, pay for photos if I can just get them for free on a stock photo site - Yeah yeah - If people and sort of small business use some great photography, they're not really financially in a place right now to be able to commission a very talented photographer like you to take their photos for them, what are their options? - Right, there are options, this is the great that word again, stealing a photo today, there's loads of options like so why not, if you talk to your clients, ask them, if you've done something for them, get them to take a photo or there's all sorts of ways to say look, can you take a photo, could you share a screen shot, would you mind if I showed off something on your website, would you mind, you know use what you have been doing, whatever it is, whatever your work, yeah whatever, you know I don't believe there's anyone that could come up with something that said that I can't think of an idea for how you could use something of how you're working, if you've got customers a really obvious one is get them to shop their their thing, their object, their product that they bought from you with, smiling and happy, and obviously because they have taken the photo they need to just give you permission, but if by default you say okay, would you mind you could, you know you have to ask do you mind if I use your photo, I'm going to use it on my Instagram, is that okay, yes is usually the answer, and they've probably shared it to you, so they're happy for you to do that, you know it's not difficult to create yourself a batch of photo content, you know, batch it up, do a round robin each month of contacting your clients and say hey, can I do this, and can I do it, yeah okay would you show me this, you know unboxing photos if you're a product, yeah that sort of thing I sort of well yeah - I will say as well here if somebody has shared, like if somebody's bought something from you or they have shared a photo of something that you have done, even if they tag you on their social media, please still ask them before you re-post that anywhere don't just sort of go oh well they've tagged me, so I can use it, it's fine, please send them a message or leave a comment that is like, do you mind if I use this on Facebook, Instagram, wherever, because it's polite, and also as Catherine has said it is their copyrighted image, so please do ask you don't at least, I could hug you right now, if I knew you were in the same way honestly, that is exactly, you just have to ask you know, it's really not hard, and it isn't, it is polite and it's just doing the right thing, yeah, that person's unlikely to chase you down and sue you for anything by putting it, but it's just a little bit of politeness in this world, we just need a little bit of thought for others, a little bit of consideration, it's not hard to do really, is it, and so that, I love that, I love it yes, yes - I think the thing is if you are out there leaving comments like that, other people see it and they see that you are not just assuming that those photos are okay to use, you are interacting with your customers and you are asking for permission from, and that builds your own brand reputation as well, shows to people that you are an ethical business, that you do care about copyright and things, and that is important as well that there might be a reason that they say yeah, please do use it, but please don't tag me in, there might be a reason that they don't want to be tagged in, that sort of happens, or they might want to be tagged in, so there's all sorts so you know you've got to kind of be just be kind, be thoughtful about, be a bit more mindful of other people and what they're doing you know so yeah, that's a great way, that's the perfect way to immediately bulk up your stock of photos to be using, and you can use that onto your blogs, onto your website if people don't give you that permission, if you've asked for the permission can I, okay well I'm gonna write about this or something, do you mind if I put it into a post, and into a blog, and into my website and I'm gonna put it on LinkedIn, Facebook and Instagram is that okay, yes they'll say, hopefully, that would be great, you've got some photo content and you know be creative in using that photo content, perhaps if it sort of works out well enough the photo itself might be able to be chopped into parts if they if they've given you the permission just to do that, you can actually go ahead and use, you know zoom into the product, or into the happy face, or into the whatever it is that you know, whatever that, what it ever is that you're, yeah, be creative in your use of the photo if that's allowed, and okay find photos on stock sites, it is okay but just do that double checking of, do double check, do a double check that the permission has been granted by the photographer for the use that you want it for, and yeah, my only thing with using stock sites is it's quite obvious it's a stock site, it's not quite often a photo, and I think sometimes you are missing a little bit of, well you're missing a bit of a marketing trick, because you're sort of alienated, I feel like it's a slight way of alienating some of your potential clients customers, because it doesn't feel real, I mean I know the buzzword is authentic, yeah, be authentic, if you want to be authentic you've got to do it real, so it might be in your brand colors, and that's lovely, but just be a little bit careful that it still feels like it's come from something that you have created, and so this brings me to my top tip of like, what you should do if you can't actually commission a set, and please don't be put off commissioning a set because it's commissioning a set, I'm going to put this in here, commissioning a set might not be as expensive as you think and it might absolutely be worth the investment, it's gonna make you money but get creating, how about getting creating for yourself, there are lots of courses out there on how to take photos, I run my own courses, I do a selfie taking masterclass for those who want to try and put their own face, which is this is huge marketing tool as well, you've got to put your face out there on on social media again, becoming authentic, being real, being that person, the go-to person and bring your brand alive, that's stuff you know, so ,just, invest an hour or twoin a photography taking class, a phone photo taking class of some sort, whether it be for your product, whether it be for you, for your brand, or something for, however it is you want to do it, and then use that, you know, again, but spend 20 minutes a month taking a few photos with your phone and you've got a batch for the month that you've made, you've not had to pay anything for, you don't have to ask yourself for permission - Yeah, I think that when when people are thinking as well, I think about, like, commissioning photos for themselves, I do think people forget that you could reuse those photos, I have had clients say to me I've used all the professional photos that I had done, what do I do, and I say use them again, do you think there is this sort of idea that you can share it once on your social media, and then that's it, it's used, it's finished you know, but it's not like, it's not toilet paper you know you can you can reuse it, - It's not toilet paper, I shouldn't, I'm gonna put that on one of my web pages it's really cool, I think that's a very, that's a good question, that's a good thought though because again, if your photographer has worked with you and created a license for you to use them, then it would have been made clear that you can use them on your inst, yeah, over and over, you can, you know there should be that again should be part of that license given to you, and then you'll know that you can use them over again, and get again like I said before, get creative with using your photos, I do, am I allowed to mention a lead magnet I have - People might find useful actually I have a, if you go to my Instagram and you look on my Instagram bio you will find a link that will take you through to a helpful pdf download that will help you to use your photos, and use them in more than one way, so it's talking about how to crop your photos and think a bit creatively so you don't necessarily always use the photo as it was given to you by the photographer, you might crop it down in different ways, use different sections for different reasons, use them as backgrounds, use them as banners and so on, so it will help you to work out what you might be able to do, but yeah yeah do you, be creative that in the show notes so people can get there but yeah, and I do I think that's sort of some of, what stops people reusing things is that sort of well, I've already shared it as it is, what else am I going to do with it, but there are so many different ways that you can use it, and you can also just reuse it as it is, sort of a few months down the line you can, people aren't scrolling that far back on your social media, it's fine, post it again, you paid for it, use it - That's so funny people actually think that, I know I'm wondering about my, I'm gonna put that into my next newsletter to let people know you can use your photos again, it's okay yeah, absolutely, oh dear, and then you get to the other extreme where people have been using their same professional photos for about five or six years, and they don't look like themselves anymore, that's the other extreme - Yeah yeah, please, using them until you realistically need some new ones, because they no longer accurately represent you, yes - Yeah so, well this has been very interesting, - This has been super, this has been really super, I think you have like, I think you've covered so much with this, we've kind of like, - Really everybody is very very informed now about copyright and options that they have for photos and that kind of thing, so where can they find you to find even more fabulous photo information - Yeah, oh Alexis I'd love it if people wanted to find out a little bit more and then please come over to Entirely Catherine photography over on Instagram, I am there quite regularly and popping up on my stories and igtv and all sorts of things, and I'm, you know I do like to share some tips and helpful things, so if you are wanting to create for yourself you might find some information over there that will help you, and you know, obviously brand photography is my thing so a little bit more of that, if you want to know a bit more about that but yeah, be great say hi and if you have more questions about copyright, if I don't know the answer I will find someone who does know the answer, I'll point you in the right direction, so please just DM me, I'm happy for that too really really, you know, awesome and say hi, just come and say hi, hi I listened to Alexis's podcast, I think that would be me it would be so cool if someone did that I'd love that please do that, thank you - Please please, say you found her through the podcast - I'll tell you what if anyone puts and, it's not, what was it, it's not like toilet roll or something, it's not like, it's not like I use toilet roll in my DM's, I will know where they found it That should be the promo for the episode, photos, brackets, not like toilet roll! I would also just like to say, Catherine does an amazing selfie course and several of my clients have taken it and rave about how amazing it is, so if you are somebody who is not really confident about taking selfies, you're not a big fan of putting yourself out there on social media, face wise, do have a look at it, I will drop the link in the show notes - I run them regularly so there'll be another one very soon, so please do, and that would be like yeah, that doesn't matter when you're listening to this podcast, there'll be another one soon - And if you don't see the information DM Catherine and ask her for it - Oh thank you - Thank you very much for being - Thank you, thank you Alexis, it's been so lovely, what a great way to spend an hour, thank you [Hawke] If you want more regular reminders to find your own way to use social media, follow Alexis on your social platform of choice, all the links will be in the show notes. Until next time, be a human.